Yep, I agree with Mr Jan and Big X. They do turn up at odd times, but usually its a mixture of Red/Yellow etc. However as the robot is still made today in China, it could be an assembly of all yellow parts of different ages! but i'm not suggesting that's what we have here. If you add up all the ones made over the years it comes to 3 million, and although 99% are black, colored ones do come out of the woodwork. I have a red one and a multicolored, but no all yellow.
I will confirm I supplied the 2 url's for the 2 patents in question, and they appeared here for 2 days. Then they disappeared.
Chilli. You have done a lot of research on this item, and some crosses over to that ive done. Well done. Some agrees with mine, but I was unaware of the chimp and its relevance. I will now chase up MINCO and see what I can find out. The patent number on the chimp box isn't Japanese, perhaps its US?
Chilli, in the patent itself, Which I did indeed post the url to, it just says a name Mojinme, as Mojinme No, meaning what we would call "Mr". It doesn't use it as Minco or any company, but this may well be the case. I will see what I can find. I must say that the Japanese at that date, didn't make life easy for us. They sold a toy, probably made by some un-named company, marked with someone elses logo, and nothing written down to confirm the tangled mass. Another company like this seems to be ACE/SNK/Sankei. Another is ASC/ATC (AOshin/Asahi. Even a straightforward company like Marx had a Japanese division Linemar who bought toys from all over Japan, made by almost anyone, badged up "LineMar" and imported mostly to US. Again, nothing was ever recorded asto who actually made these toys. When i'm researching something, I keep coming to a dead stop, where the important piece of info wasn't recorded. Nomura seemed to make almost anything for anyone. I still have to research Naito Shoten (AN), who maybe just have bought the 2 pressings we think are their own work, from a small company (or even Nomura?), but that's another problem for another day.
John, you can assist us then, as you have the early version AND its box. Does it have a patent date on then? Obviously not, if it was obtained as a gift in 1947. This will be the early solid arm type produced by Mr Mojinme (who was dead by the time it was sold.) Probably one of the batch he produced, and sold by his son-in-law. About this time the son-in-law applied for a patent, and as the original lodger was dead, and he knew he couldn't transfer the patent to his name, added his own to become a joint patent. That's what I reckon anyway. We will never be sure.
I supplied the url's of the 2 patents, but cant see them (unmoderated?)
Firstly, the patent Office in Japan was only open during 9-5 Japanese time, and for some very strange reason they closed access to the web down during times that they were closed! Now they don't have access at any times! The old url for S24-210 was:-
Unfortunately this wont display either now. I have tried when the pat office is open and nothing now. So I said its only available from the quoted address thesedays. As the original copies are in gif format, they would distort if reproduced. The character size is 4mm tall and although it can be read, some of the 15 stroke characters are a bit blured, and I cant read some others. Its all in Japanese script.
Yes it may well be that ARM was first sold in 1949, I don't make any claims to the date it was first sold, but at whatever date it was first sold, it was made by a Mr Mojinme (the solid srm Mk 1) and he applied for a provisional patent. Then after the war, and after he died, his son-in-law applied in Both names and was granted a patent (S24-210) the second model. If you think that's complicated, you should try reading it all in Japanese script. Copies are available (in Japanese) from the address quoted.
OK now to B) Lilliput. It may well be pre war, but it was not patented at all. I noticed that a toy, the dancing couple, shown in several books, carries THE SAME LOGO as on Lilliput. Not a patent for Lilliput. This was made by the same KT that made the dancing couple as both carry the same KT logo. Lilliput was still being made post war by Komatsudo Seisakuho and as the logo for the patented dancers is exactly the same as Lilliput, I believe they were made by the same company. Whether it was made in 1935 I believe IS heresay. The earliest I believe it to be is 1939. This design or designs were taken over by Hasegawa Toy Kogyo certainly by the Dancing couple patent date of S 30- 13625 (1955). This was granted 18th August 1958. Again, this patent is all in Japanese.
All I can say is that the patent is in Japanese, and that with a) Atomic Robot Man, that the item was patented in 1949. The patent doesn't say when it was first (or any other date) made.
and B) With Lilliput, it doesn't say when it was made. In this case, it just gives the date of the 2 Dancers (with the same makers logo as on Lilliput robot.
Incidentally, the Atomic robot's box carries the patent as 24-210 correctly S 24-210 lodged on the 12th January 1949, which means that anything with a date on the box 24-210 has to have been made after 1949. The first type with bullet lead arms, I have never seen in a box. My own example is the folded hollow armsmtype that I got as a kid, was in a box with the 24-210 on it.
I didn't think I would have to explain that. I didn't say the first dates of the 2 robots were those stated, I simply gave the PATENT dates, and the names therin as stated.
I have been working on these 2 illusive bots for 15 years now, and as I unearthed information that I know others were after, I thought i'd put it on Alphadrome. The two patents are only available from the address I gave above, and are in Katakana, Kana, Kanji and Hiragana. You have to be able to read all 4 to understand what is printed. Each patent is named after the Emperor,s reign in which they were lodged. Ie
S for Showa (Hiro Hito) S-24 or Showa 24 is the 24 year of Hiro Hito or 1949.
Japanese patent number Showa 24-210 is the patent for Atomic Robot, as is marked on the box. The Patent is marked 1949 and carries the name MojinMe, and GoMaKu RaSu then No The latter No, means a proper noun or (name). A Mr Mojinme was an engineer who didn't survive the war, So although his name is on the patent, it was lodged by Gomakurasu. I have had better luck with Lilliput robot though. When you look at Lilliput robot's side, you see the logo of KT. There is a dancing couple shown in various books etc, that also carries this logo, and a patent number Showa 30 - 13625 which is 1955.
Looking at the patent it is an awful lot later than Lilliput, but carries the same KT. The originator of Lilliput was a firm called Komatsudo Seisakusho. Now they disappeared quite soon afterwards and theres no sign of them afterwards. When I looked up the name of who was making the dancers toy in 1955, it turned out to be Hasagawa Toy Co. They emerged out of many tin toy companies, and are still making toys today. The web site giving their history says they were founded in 1959, but they lodged a patent for the dancing couple in 1955. so it looks like KT (maker of Lilliput) was mopped-up pre 1955 by Hasagawa.
So here we have the links to who was involved in the early days of these 2 previously mysterious robots.
The Japanese patent office : 3-chome 4-3 Kasumigaseki. Chiyoda-Ku Tokyo 100-8915 Mr Mikihro Shiratori Mr
Its really sad to lose a friend at 48 years. When Paul sold his collection, i corresponded with him as he then lived 500 miles south of me. I managed to purchase several bots that never got to the auction, and with each he added a slip saying when and where he got them. A true gentleman of the sort that you dont see thesedays. Funnily enough, i was in Venice when the accident happened, and was totally unaware of it. Sadly missed.
I have studied all the types of Lilliput made (that im aware of). The dials on the front are the best source of what you have there. If it doesnt have complete paint on the detail areas - who would want it? You can pay $5 to $10,000 for an example, and obviously you need to be sure what it is. Size is very close, the original is shorter, thinner and the depth is less, but the words on the dials (i put the chest under a microscope that displays on my PC) and the quality of printing at 20 times is poor, but on the original does say "JAPAN". The repops all say junk. Luckily the boxes all say www. etc so an original box stands out by the smell! Old card smells distinctive. If you have a doubt about one on eBay - dont bid. If you need specific differences, please get back to me on email@example.com
OK i realise is kinda not PC to mention an eBay item whilst still live, BUT...
Item 251165335425 not bad for a Chinese Atomic Robot Man with felt tip penwork. The only thing is that the ears arnt pinched! And whats with the giant KO on the rear?? If it was made in Japan, then the Japanese maker was infringing the 1949 Patent. (patent 13625). So it cant be original, but any schoolkid could produce one for $5 and some white paint and a pen!!
Nice 3 l3ver version. I have 3 and 4 lever versions, and both need regular spray oil in the back. If not, they rattle when spinning over. But first, check that all cogs line up correctly before you start. If they are out of line to start with, its not going to gat any A+ marks.
Item number160685433330 was a modern Planet robot (plastic type) made in 2003, which had a box label made on a scanner. It was withdrawn after the scammer claimed it was "Original, and 1950's". All i can say is that there must be some really stupid people out there. Perhaps someone will list a 1903 Robosapien soon?